How a Lebanese Christian Overcame Church Wounds transcript
July 1, 2025
www.CrossCulturalVoices.org
Robin Karkafi: I get what it's like to be burned by the church. I urge everybody: that is not the Church of Christ, that is people failing and falling short of what God has instructed us to do, which is to love each other and take care of each other.
And I still have close friends who walked away from the faith, and I never stopped caring about them. We're still friends and some of them actually recently have been turning around and reconnecting with their faith. And that empathy has its own ministry, right? For you to be a light to your friends. So don't give up. And be a safe space for those who feel like they don't belong anymore, anywhere.
John Yoder: Hi everybody. Welcome back to Cross-Cultural Voices, John Yoder here. You've had me as your host for a long time, and what you're used to is hearing me interview some guests. Today is a very special day, because I'm not interviewing a guest. I'm interviewing our new co-host.
Robin Karkafi is 25 years old. He was born in Lebanon. He and his family moved to the Toronto area when he was 10 years old, and he's joining us today. Robin, welcome to Cross-Cultural Voices.
Robin Karkafi: Hey John. Thanks for having me.
John Yoder: You and I first met about a month ago through your dad, and you looked at our website not knowing me or our organization at all and when we first chatted, you were really pumped about Cross-Cultural Voices. Tell me what that was about.
Robin Karkafi: John, I had a pretty polar experience, I'd say, moving to Canada. And I think when I looked at your website and I looked at what you guys are doing, I thought to myself, this would've been great about 10 years ago. And it means so much to me, honestly.
I found it related to my story, all my experiences, even my heart to help people and young adults and teenagers. Everything just intersected. I get to use my audio production and podcast experience, honestly to help tell that some of those stories people wrestling with like faith, culture, identity.
And because I've lived in that tension myself I get to offer both a piece of what I've been through.
But also with curiosity, ask the right questions to those we're interviewing, so it's not just a podcast. I feel like it's very personal and I'm really excited to be here.
John Yoder: And we're thrilled to have you as well. Now I met you through your dad. I've known your dad for a few years, and he's been a Lebanese pastor. And what I love about him is he works with the FEBC, the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist of Canada, and helps white Canadian churches host immigrant churches in such a way that it really impacts their second generations. You want to share with us just a little bit about that?
Robin Karkafi: Oh yeah, he started off as a pastor. He planted his first church back in Lebanon and really felt called to missions. And over time his work in ministry developed, and now he is director of church planting. He does help guide and also bridge/translate cultural and language differences between different cultures or people of different origins, especially with the amounts of amount of immigrants we have in Canada here. It is a bigger, now a bigger portion of the population that we're trying to reach.
So he really helps try and facilitate that. He'll pick out certain leaders and train them properly and guide them with, within a church planting umbrella.
He's doing a fantastic job. I'm super proud of him as my father. And yeah, he sure knows a lot of people. I'm not surprised that that he's been talking to a lot of people in the States.
John Yoder: What I really like about his model, let's just say you've got a Latino church and they're worshiping in Spanish. Often they're just using space, and that's about it. But what he does, is he helps that Latino pastor get to know the Canadian pastor. Often they're in the board together, or some such thing.
So you've got one English service, you've got a Spanish service. They're doing youth and kids together, both in English. And when those young people turn 19, tt's their call, do they want to go to English worship or Spanish worship. And so they don't have that tension of, am I a Latino or a Canadian? It really helps them accept that they're Latinos and Canadians. I really like that model.
Robin Karkafi: Oh, it's great. It's great. And everybody's different. So certain people will lean one way and the other, certain people will just say, I am really just a Canadian or an American, or a Latino. And then they can choose their own path. And you know what? As long as it all leads to Christ , and then I think it's mission accomplished for us.
John Yoder: Great. So in just a minute, Robin, we want to hear your story, but before we do that, I want to share the opportunity to bring on a young woman as a second co-host.
So Robin, you are bringing us a fresh, younger voice, but we need to hear the voices of young women as well. We have a young woman who's interested in this role. Her name is Maria Makhnach. She was born in Belarus. She came with her family to the US when she was 11 years old. She's a committed Christian, gifted speaker, disciple maker.
For us to bring you on, Robin, there were generous donors that gave $6,000--$2,000 to build our new website, plus $4,000 to hire you. For us to bring on. Maria, we need another $4,000, so we're asking our listeners to provide that amount by July the 18th. You can give online on our website, www.CrossCulturalVoices.org.
Brothers and sisters, young women need to hear the voices of others who look like them, who think like them. So please be part of this gift to amplify Maria's voice.
Alright, so Robin, right now, let's hear your story. Really, it starts when you were 10 and you folks moved to Canada. What happened?
Robin Karkafi: It's it was definitely a change. So we moved to Canada and we were in Canada moving around a lot: Ottawa, east end of Toronto which is, or sorry, west End of Toronto, which is closer to Cambridge now.
But everything really changed. Back home, we lived a pretty comfortable life. But here, we had to start from zero, right? Start from scratch. It was a new country, a new culture. And everything was basically new to me personally, and I can only imagine what kind of things my parents had to adjust to.
It was very humbling to see them work and toil and that kind of. Transition from one culture to the other shapes a person, right? It shaped me into who I am. It taught me just watching my parents and, myself making mistakes and learning from them. It taught me, to be resilient to, to find comfort in that Christ God has it all in his hands. But it also showed me some negative, some cracks showed during the transition. So those were also things that we had we had to deal with.
John Yoder: What were some of those cracks?
Robin Karkafi: It's hard to multitask as parents, for example not myself, but my parents. My dad's gone through times where he had to work, like minimum wage jobs, just to keep on pastoring at the church because really getting paid from the church wasn't an option. And there were some issues with the church that we found. But yeah. That's something that that kind of shaped who I was during my teenage years.
John Yoder: So what kind of church issues?
Robin Karkafi: To be honest with you, it's something I've seen multiple times happen, but I never thought it happened to us. So a few years after, after moving to Canada we were part of an Arabic-speaking church that my dad pastored at slash co-pastor. And at some point came outta nowhere, but there was like a lot of drama, a lots of division. And eventually it, the church split. And it wasn't, it wasn't pretty at all.
I was young and I still remember thinking wow, Christians I never thought Christians could act this way. We preach about love and grace but I never knew they could be so cruel to each other. It felt almost hypocritical.
And that was it for me, like after the split, I was serving every week at a church. But I'd mentally checked out. I didn't feel comfortable there. I always felt a there certain pressure, and I figured, if that's what being around Christians look looks like, I'd rather not be there. And that was throughout my mid-teens till late teens.
John Yoder: Sadly, Robin, so many young people, teens and young adults can tell very similar stories, where Christians are not acting like Christians and it just gives 'em a very bad taste about Christianity, and sadly about Jesus.
Robin Karkafi: A hundred percent. They think that reflects what Jesus is like. And that really isn't what Jesus is like.
John Yoder: So it probably meant that as a teen, we're all asking, where do I belong? Who are my people? Really? You didn't feel like bonding closely with Christians?
Robin Karkafi: No, no. Funny enough, I found my friends elsewhere in my teenage years, high school, and past that in university. We called it “my people” because we had a joke that I would lay my life down for “my people”.
But they were outside the church. They weren't Christians. They were really kind, they were very welcoming, very loving, and I felt really safe around them. Now we didn't get up to anything crazy. Never really were the party kind of guys, but they were also not bringing me closer to Christ. But for a while, like that felt like a fresh, like a breath, fresh of air.
And compared to the church and what the, what's happened, what happened before and what I've experienced they actually treated me with kindness and respect and they treated each other that way. And I thought maybe I didn't really need to go to church after all.
And that was closer to my university years. It really yeah, I. It really boiled down to me just focusing on university and not feeling like going to church every Sunday was something important.
John Yoder: Yeah. And that's really sad is that in just so many cases, people have had really negative experiences with the church and then they go to any of a number of different kinds of non-Christian groups and find exactly what you said, kindness, which is a Christian value, but the Christians aren't the ones that show it. It's really sad.
Robin Karkafi: Yeah. And that's an experience that other people experience. They'll go out into the world, into certain, circles and cultures and feel like they're being treated better. But I feel like we're all we're all people who struggle with sin.
And one thing that I've finally noticed is that over time some cracks started to show with my friends the ones that weren't Christian, right? They started, conflict started, they started treating each other horribly, right? And it, it started off with like disciplinary issues, and then ended up with, gossip and people getting hurt.
And it hit me hard. Because I thought the only people that I felt safe around, I was now feeling very unsafe around or I couldn't trust anymore with some of my secrets and like heart issues. The people I thought were better than the church crowd turned out like to be basically the same.
And that kind of was like a realization moment. And it happened a bit towards the end of high school and like halfway through university. And it made me kind of start rethinking things. I realized like that being kind without truth and Christ might not have been, a stable structure for people. God started showing me things in a different way, slowly but surely.
John Yoder: Was there a time where it felt like there was no one you could trust?
Robin Karkafi: Yeah, but luckily for me it was COVID time. I could just cozy up and let time pass by. Focus on my studies. And so we all went into isolation right about then. It was almost like providence, but maybe I shouldn't say that. COVID was not the best for everybody.
John Yoder: So what happened after that? What helped you round the corner and, turn back towards God and faith?
Robin Karkafi: It took time. It started off during COVID we'd actually, and I was lucky because my parents had convinced me to move back, transfer over to Notre Dame University in Lebanon. And that's when COVID started. And so I started going to the church there. But then COVID hit and things took a break.
And, but even in that church, I started realizing that no one was, no one's perfect, right? But the difference, there was a difference there. There was conflict, but there was resolution, there was forgiveness. There was love. And I realized, slowly but surely over the years, that the Christian community isn't about perfection.
Because we do, I know it's for me, we always preach about what it's like to be like Christ, to model ourselves after Christ. And he is perfect, and so some, I got that. I can, it can easily, you can easily get that confused, right? It's so to be like Christ is to be perfect, but then understanding that we can never be perfect is hard because it it's implied, but some people just don't understand that.
And I was one of those people. I did really find that it was about learning to forgive. And grow after conflict, and to work through all the mess that is our sinful nature, instead of hiding and running away from it or trying to get back at each other.
So yeah. The transition out of COVID, I'd met one of my friends. I think the summer of 2020. And he said he wanted to go to Bible college and, but was afraid of going in alone. I threw a random phrase out there. I'm like, I'll go with you and I'll go if you want to go.
And my parents just stared at me like, you don't know if you're gonna go. And I ended up going to Bible college the year after. That was a whole transition that was actually a big shift in my life and a kind of a turning point.
John Yoder: Why? What was the difference there? There are plenty of people whose experience at Bible college are even worse than the ones at church.
Robin Karkafi: Yeah. Yeah. I hear different stories. Funny enough, my story was the complete opposite of that friend of mine. So my experience at Bible college was a good turning point. And for my friend it was a point where he realized what I had realized a year before. But I guess that's just God's way of showing us things and working through us.
So yeah during Bible college, it's I the community there was something I'd always hoped for, I was always looking for.
I really want to preface and say no one was perfect there, but the people were welcoming. They were gracious, and they were actually fun to be around, which is something I couldn't find in the years past. I would stack it up to the youth program or young adults program not being present in previous churches. It was just a great group of people to be around, and they lived out their Christian life authentically. But more than that, when we would face issues and conflict, we would deal with it with grace and kindness and love. And that really ignited things, really showed I saw the love of God through those people.
And that was my turning point. For the first time in a long time, I wasn't just believing in theology, but I was actually living it out in a healthy and growing environment.
John Yoder: That is so important to have that environment of peers. I tell you, Robin, I worship at all these immigrant churches, 20, 30, 40 people, which means they only have two or three teenagers there.
There isn't a youth group. And because you've got young children, the teens then become babysitters. They go take care of the six-year-olds. And so they don't get to have fun. And if they're in a small church, they're the only three Ethiopians anywhere near them that are Christians. They don't know that there are other young people that love the Lord.
One of the things you said is you guys had fun. And in an all-adult church, you don't do that. So I just wanna encourage so many people listening in who say, church is all just argument or theology. It is life together and fun. And so your life really transitioned when you found a Christian peer group who loved you.
Robin Karkafi: And yeah, nobody's perfect. We have conflict, but learn how to deal with it in a healthy manner. And that's definitely something I noticed, something my father noticed. He walks the talk.
And I can vaguely remember certain churches that I visited with my father for only one time because he was on mission he was doing missions work. There was a thriving community of youth and young adults. And it was just for the Sunday, that one hour.
I saw things done differently. Lots of kids around having fun and learning about Jesus in a fun way. And I'm like, wow, why was why didn't I have that? And I think in retrospect it's all for a good reason. It's all for us to spread this message that it is really important for us to focus on our youth and young adults and make sure they're spiritually fed and well taken care of.
John Yoder: And that's one of the reasons Cross-Cultural Voices exists, for those young people that have never experienced, that don't know that there are young adults like you, and know that your stories are not unique. There are a lot of Robins out there that didn't grow up with those healthy models, but found them later on.
Robin Karkafi: I get what it's like to be burned by the church. And I urge everybody: that is not the Church of Christ, that is people failing and falling short of what God has instructed us to do, which is to love each other and take care of each other.
And I still have close friends who walked away from, from the faith, and I never stopped caring about them. We're still friends and some of them actually recently have been turning around. And reconnecting with their faith and that empathy has its own ministry, right? For you to be a light to your friends. So don't give up. And be a safe space for those who feel like they don't belong anymore, anywhere. 'cause there's worse places. Way worse places.
John Yoder: So in meeting these new friends, obviously relationally, that really helped you, you had a healthy peer group, did your relationship with God change in that same process?
Robin Karkafi: A hundred percent. The fact that they were committed and openly pursuing godliness and a better relationship with Christ. Because they came in first year around, they came in and you can tell that some of them weren't standup Christians. Some of them came in not knowing why they were there, but there was reason for them to be there.
And over time it's very contagious, the way they were taking care. They were pursuing God day by day, just being in the Word. It was great to be around, and that definitely changed me.
John Yoder: Yeah that's great. Just to even have one friend that lives it and loves it. They're not hypocrites. It's the real deal. That's a life changer.
Robin Karkafi: Amen to that.
John Yoder: So Robin, what was your degree, and what has that led you to in the career market?
Robin Karkafi: So I've been all over the place career wise. I started off doing computer systems engineering and at Heritage, I did audio engineering and production.
And now I serve at Forward Church in Cambridge. And I'm on staff there. I do their projections, cameras, sound, all that. But God's led me through so many different stages and careers of life for a reason. I started off working a basic retail job, ending up working at a university just to come back and serve at church.
And you know what? All of those years I served at at our church as a kid before I was in Canada, to my teenage years serving every week, this feels like home. And I'm surrounded by the good types of people. Very loving, very caring.
John Yoder: Now for many people, church and ministry and God is one thing, audio-visual, tech, podcast, is another thing. How do you see those two working together?
Robin Karkafi: Honestly, we are given an opportunity with tech to reach even more people now, right? For example, at our church, hundreds of people that watch online every day. And some people, some of those people have, even recently, we had a couple that came to our church and said, we've been listening and watching we've been listening to your podcast and watching your online services for over two years now. And we've never stepped foot into this building and we're finally ready to join back.
And those are the kinds of people who may have been hurt by her church before, but we preach and we lead by example. And we show them kindness and love. We even run a podcast to recap everything.
And it is really more content and media for people to be fed spiritually and to re reignite that trust towards Christians. Because they may not want to step a foot into the church, because of what they've experienced in the past. So it is really important, I feel like what we're doing, media production, podcasts, super important. Super important.
John Yoder: Yeah. Jesus says, go out into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in. And today the highways and hedges where young people spend their time are screens. Young people spend seven hours a day looking at screens. It's absolutely imperative that Jesus and the gospel go there.
Robin Karkafi: And not enough people realize that some of these kids might not ever have a chance to speak with a Christian. We might be able to reach them through media, and if we can, we have to.
John Yoder: Wow, Robin, you've got a great testimony! We're so glad you're our new co-host and look forward to working with you over the long term. Next week we're starting a new series, and it's called “Multiethnic Family Survival Skills”. It's interviews with couples who have different racial backgrounds, black, white, brown, yellow.
What's it like for those different cultures to come together? And then for the kids, because they're caught between mom and dad's culture and the culture around them. How do you navigate all the different values of time and money and conflict and communication?
Robin, you've already had the chance to listen to the first one of those interviews. It's a Puerto Rican husband with a British wife. Tell our friends what they can expect in the next few weeks.
Robin Karkafi: Oh, it's awesome. It's awesome. If you've ever wondered what it's like to listen and learn from people who figured it all out and are perfect people it's never gonna happen. But what you can expect is people sharing their piece.
Claire and Joel have been through so much individually and as a couple and they've overcome so much. And me personally, I'm so glad I get a preview of it all because they have learned and grown from their mistakes and they figured a few things out, and the fact that they were able to share that with you guys, I'm excited for everyone to hear what they had to say. I'm not gonna spoil anything. They'll just have to wait.
John Yoder: Please remember everyone, we still have that special offering for Maria that runs through July the 18th. We're looking for another $4,000 to bring her on as a co-host, because we’re thrilled to have Robin here, but we need some estrogen in this group. We need to have a young woman and to empower her voice as well. So hope you'll do that. You can donate at our website, www.CrossCulturalVoices.org, where you can find the blogs, podcast, transcript, and everything else. We'll see you next week.
