Punctuality, Fluid Time, and the Multiethnic Family
July 15, 2025
www.CrossCulturalVoices.org
Joel Torres: I'm the spender.
Claire Torres: Yep. Joelle's a spender. And I'm a saver. I am somebody that's always come from budgets and just from being very careful about saving money. And Joelle hasn't had that same upbringing or outlook on money. Even down to generosity. What does generosity look like?
Robin Karkafi: Hey everyone. Welcome to Cross-Cultural Voices. I'm Robin.
John Yoder: And I'm John.
Robin Karkafi: Today we will be diving into part two of Claire and Joel's story. Last week we did part one, and it was just so great listening to their stories and getting to know them. Today we're really just listening to more of these cultural differences and bit of the nuances they faced as a couple. John, what do you, what are some of those issues between multicultural couples?
John Yoder: One of the most common issues that I see in cross-cultural families is how direct you are in conflict. Globally, people look at Westerners and go, âYou guys are so direct. You'll just look somebody in the eye and say, âYou are wrongâ, or âYou offended me.ââ And in most global cultures, they want to give face, and they will not be that direct with you.
Robin Karkafi: And that's actually one I think one of the first issues that people should tackle. 'cause in any other differences they face, communication is key, isn't it?
One of the issues I see between some couples is a clear work-life balance. I find that Western culture has a clear and defined nine-to-five work schedule. For others that might be different, but people do respect each other's off work hours. You don't reach out to a coworker after hours for anything work related. It's almost considered rude.
But in my culture, in Lebanese culture. I find work hours a bit more flexible. Some people will take a break in the afternoon and work until the late night. And it's almost encouraged for other people to reach out during any hour of the day just about projects or work related things. Just shows your dedication and hard work to what you do.
John Yoder: We've seen that in other countries as well. Latinos often take a break in the afternoon called a siesta. Chinese do the exact same thing. They just call it a xiuxi.
Another difference that I see is the degree of formality or informality. Westerners want to call each other by their first name. Even if it's your boss, even it's the professor, even if it's the president, we just want to call him Bob or whatever. But in many cultures, you give people a title of respect. So in the American church, I'm usually called John. And in the Chinese church, I'm usually called Reverend Yoder. And I'm okay with either of those.
Robin Karkafi: That's awesome.
John Yoder: Today, Joel and Claire, last time they talked about how they met, how they dated, got engaged, but today the rubber meets the road and they're gonna talk about three of the conflict issues that they faced.
Robin Karkafi: That's awesome. John, last week we heard how Claire and Joel met. And in this part two of our Multiethnic Family Survival Skills series, of the interview with them, we're be talking about money, about time and punctuality, and about noise levels in a household.
John Yoder: And Joel and Claire are not the only couple that wrestle with those issues, that's for sure. Just before we get to Joel and Claire, I wanna remind everybody that this is our final week to try to bring Maria Mock notch on as our second co-host.
I'm thrilled to have Robin here as a young man sharing this platform with me, but we need some estrogen on this podcast. Maria Makhnach is a mature disciple-maker. She's a wonderful speaker. Between now and the 18th of July, we're raising $4,000 for her part-time salary to join us as a co-host.
If you would like to donate toward that, you can visit our website, www.CrossCulturalVoices.org. All of our podcasts, transcripts, blogs are right there, and we would love to have you join us. Now let's hear the second part of Joel and Claire's interview.
So Joel, many of us really don't understand Puerto Rico. Is it a state? Is it a country? Are you a foreigner? How does that all work?
Joel Torres: So Puerto Rico is a commonwealth. We are a US territory, but we're not a state, we're not an official US state. We share certain things that US state does and some of the laws and things like that, but we're not a US state. It's a little bit complicated, but that's the extent of it.
We are commonwealth, we are affiliated to the US. But we're not completely affiliated, if that makes any sense. But we keep our flag. We are US citizens. English is our second language, and Spanish is our first language. And we are an island in the Caribbean. We're really close to Cuba, Dominican Republic, and the Virgin Islands.
If you go to Puerto Rico, you are gonna see most of the things in the USâWalmart, Target, and all that stuff, because we have that connection going on. We have certain things that are very similar to the US. Only thing is that we're not a US state. We're a commonwealth.
John Yoder: There's obviously a lot of tension right now in our Latino communities because there are a lot of undocumented folks here. But as I understand it, for Puerto Ricans, this isn't even an issue. You were born a citizen. You can just come. Like I can go from Minnesota to New York with nothing. And the same is true for Puerto Rico, is that correct?
Joel Torres: Yes, it's correct. We're US citizens. Within the US we can travel, no problem.
Robin Karkafi: Oh, John, that's pretty cool. I guess you're born in a technically different country as a Puerto Rican.
John Yoder: Itâs not a different country. It's a territory.
Robin Karkafi: It is a territory, but it, they act, they have their own flag. Primary language is Spanish. It essentially, they have their own culture there. So would you consider it more of their own thing at the same time?
John Yoder: This is so new to me. Most of my Latino friends are from Mexico and Guatemala and Argentina. It's very clear. It's another country. Puerto Ricans, it's kind of another country and kind of not. Itâs actually not an ideal form of government, but it is what exists today. But I'm really grateful for all of our Puerto Rican friends that they're already citizens, and they can come and go and establish status in the 50 states with no problem at all.
Robin Karkafi: A hundred percent. And that's I felt like imagine being in a different, slightly different culture as a Puerto Rican, but again, you're also welcomed into the United States. No problem, no issues whatsoever. You're one of us, basically. And I think that also applies to Hawaiians as well if I'm not mistaken, right?
John Yoder: Hawaii was a republic before it became a state. I think it was 1959, it became a state. So very much the same thing. Anyway, I just threw that in as a fun fact because a lot of us don't know it. But in the main interview, what I really talked with them about were differences in personality and style.
And I know that a lot of our listeners are gonna resonate with this. And the first thing that we talk about is the difference between time. Are they punctual or is time more fluid? And this is gonna be a fascinating piece.
Claire Torres: And also I think another thing that was a surprise is time. Time keeping and how we view timekeeping very differently.
I come from a cultural background that is on time. And if a meeting starts at a certain time, that's the time that we are there for. That's also the Minnesota way. And even if it's a social thing, if somebody invites you to their house to eat at a certain time, you're there at a certain time.
Joel comes from a very different cultural background, where things are optional. Even if they're on the calendar and they have been for a while, it's optional. Like culturally in Minnesota, if they've even invited us to come, they are expecting us. Same as in England. If they're inviting us to come, they're expecting us.
Joel Torres: if it starts at 6:00 and we're making at 6:30, it's okay.
Claire Torres: And whereas for me, that makes me anxious. 'cause I'm like, no, it's 6:00. So we need to be there five minutes before.
John Yoder: How have you learned to navigate that tension?
Claire Torres: I think that because we live in Minnesota together, the predominant culture is to be on time. And so Joel really has learned, he has accommodated towards me. He really has learned that, particularly again from a work perspective. He can't decide to just arrive late, and so he has taught himself to be a better timekeeper.
Now, socially is where there are things that you have to compromise. I think socially is where we would still maybe run into that tension of Joel's it doesn't matter, like if we're a bit late, we're a bit late. And I still feel the anxiety around that. Again, he has tried to accommodate me more and try to be respectful of other people's time.
But when we go to Puerto Rico, is when I let it go, I just let it go. And we do Puerto Rican time. And so his mother will say, "We're gonna meet at the so and so restaurantâ and throw out a time. And then often we'll still be getting ready half an hour after the time she gave. And yes, I do still feel anxious about that. But we're in Puerto Rico, and so I just let it go because I know that this is okay and this culture, my mother-in-law is not gonna be mad at me. This is just normal and it is expected that we're just gonna arrive late.
But that's really the only time that we really operate on the Latino time. Joel has very graciously learned to be Anglo.
Joel Torres: It took me a while, because in Puerto Rico we don't plan when we're gonna see you. We just say, âHey, I'll see you tomorrowâ or whatever. Here you have, âOh, let me check my schedule and let me see. Oh, I don't have next week. Okay. We have to wait two months to seeâ. I'm like, What? Really?
Claire Torres: While that's a bigger struggle, it's more normal for me, and it has been something that he has struggled with really being here. That's a big difference.
But also if we have, we're with our families. My parents do visit us here sometimes. And I'll say if we tell them a time I say to Joel, âWe have to be on time. They'll be waiting outside.â and they'll say âNo, it's okay. It's okayâ. And sure enough, he has learned that my parents, if we told them a time they're gonna come out of the hotel, that Airbnb, they're gonna be standing on the side of the road waiting for us to pick him up.
Again, we just roll with who we are with to the best of our ability. And yes, it probably causes a little bit of tension sometimes. But we manage it. Just remembering to prefer the other person above yourself. So if our friend or our family member, this is how they roll, what does it mean to prefer them? It means to be hospitable. Like they need us to be hospitable towards them.
Robin Karkafi: I'm just trying to compare their experience to Canadian culture. I feel there's with here in Canada it's most of the time you've agreed on it, a time to show up. That's when you show up. And if not, then people start getting worried. Last Sunday, we had someone show up, but didn't even show up on time. And 20 minutes after seven, we started getting worried, right? You start to worry. In other cultures it's fine. It's probably normal or whatever.
John Yoder: You grew up in Lebanon. What was Lebanon like?
Robin Karkafi: It depends actually. Unless it's business related, it's really fluid. You coordinate lunch, but lunch can happen whenever the food's ready. It's not like you try to get the food ready for noon or 1:00 PM. No. It's like we get together around noon, and then we cook around that time, and then if it's ready at one or two, that's just when we eat. And there's a certain laxness to that, that I appreciate. It's like you can you take the time to just mingle and talk and have a good time.
But on the other end of the spectrum, calling a time and making sure everything's ready for that. If you're, let's say here or in Canada, having a friends or family over for lunch, you're really showing them respect and you're saying I've got everything ready for you. And we're ready to and hopefully you're there on time.
John Yoder: Another issue that Claire and Joel brought up, and it's one that I don't hear people talk about as much, is, what's the noise level, the decibel level in your home? And Claire was brought up in a quieter home, and Joel in a more noisy one. Here's what they had to say about that.
What was your biggest surprise? What was the one thing for each of you, where you said, âOh, I never saw that comingâ?
Joel Torres: I come from a very lively culture. We're loud. We like music. I listen to music all the time, and Claire likes quiet.
And sometimes it's so quiet, and she's reading a book. It's so quiet. And I come from work and I'm like, there's no more quiet now. Because I am a person that I need to have either music or the TV in the background, or something like that. She just, she can be in a quiet place. That's it. I'm like, âOh man, how can she do thatâ?
John Yoder: How do you balance that as a couple?
Joel Torres: I like noise, and I like loud. I have to say, I like Christian heavy metal, so that's how loud it can get. So she joins me, and I think it's because she loves me. It is just when you love somebody, you accept them just because you love the person. She goes with me to Christian metal fests. She goes with me, she puts her earplugs in. And she actually enjoys it.
Claire Torres: And also, it wasn't a surprise to me like I knew before we got married that Joel had noise on all the time.
So I knew that this was something that was fundamental to just how he operates. And so I had to figure out, could I accommodate maybe a bit more his way. 'cause that's the way it would need to be. I would need to accommodate more his way, not that he never accommodates my way.
And then when we're in the car. Like if he's driving by himself, his music is very loud, and of a certain style. Like he knows that I can't handle that. So it's much more quiet and peaceful.
We also just have time when we're not together. And so then that way Joel can do his thing, and I can do my thing, and the quiet and the peacefulness. We make it work.
And then really just during the working day, we are separate. So I get a lot of peaceful time in my office, Or if I'm working from home in the quiet. We've learned to just accommodate each other with that. We buy Joel really good headphones, so sometimes he'll just listen to things and even the TV, sometimes he'll sit and listen to the TV on his headphones, so I can then just be reading. Reading and quiet. But we're still together.
John Yoder: I think some people don't know there are Christian heavy metal bands. What are some of your favorite bands?
Joel Torres: I will say this, when we got married, Sacred Warrior was playing. We had a Christian heavy metal song as our exit song.
John Yoder: At your wedding?
Joel Torres: At our wedding, yeah. Sacred Warrior. I recommend it. And Disciple are always great too.
John Yoder: Where does Lebanon fall on that spectrum? Was your household more quiet or was there always some kind of noise in the background?
Robin Karkafi: You know what, it started off it, it actually still is super quiet most of the time. I remember my childhood being a very quiet time. And we had nap times and everything was very cool. I do really enjoy quiet time, and things not being too busy and hectic.
John Yoder: I think one of the reasons Sherry and I did really well in China is that East Asians are more quiet and demure. They're soft-spoken and they really prefer one-on-one or two on two to a large group.
But when I worship in churches, especially that are African or Latino, it's loud. People are close together. They're touchy. They're huggy. And I've learned to really like that. It's not natively me. But it is a beautiful thing.
Like in an American worship service, we all take turns and we all listen. French speaking Africans pray all at the same time. And I don't mind that we all pray at the same time, but the prayer leader has a mic in his hand and it's a really hot mic, and he's louder than everybody else, and he's praying at the top of his lungs, while weâre all praying together. And honestly, I find that distracting. They love it.
And I think we need to understand that God likes all of that. And he made people to be quiet and noisy because we reflect different parts of his image.
The last issue that Joel and Claire talked about is, I've heard the number one issue that leads to marriage breakups, and that's money. And the issue, the difference between a spender and a saver. So let's listen to what they had to say.
What's the biggest conflict or maybe the couple biggest conflicts you've had in your marriage?
Claire Torres: I would say money. Learning to manage money has been one of the largest ones.
Joel Torres: Yeah. I'm the spender.
Claire Torres: Yep. Joel's a spender and I'm a saver. And so we did do very good premarital counseling, so I would always suggest that. And actually, part of premarital counseling was looking at family of origin for us. So we did do that to understand how our families of origin have shaped how we react and respond to things.
So any couple should do it, honestly, but if you're a multicultural couple, really that's so important that you do that. So we had focused on money as part of that, and we had done some very good in-depth discussion, but you still can't really know until you're doing it. That's when you learn to do it.
I am somebody that's always come from budgets, and just from being very careful about saving money. And Joel hasn't had that same upbringing or outlook on money. And even down to generosity. What does generosity look like? I've always given a certain percentage of my money to the church. Joel, it wasn't that he didn't want to, he just hadn't been discipled around that.
John Yoder: Yeah. The issue you brought up about the spender and the saver is a very common issue for couples. How have you found a balance on that one?
Joel Torres: We have an app. And secondly, I ask her like, âHey, I'm gonna buy this shirtâ, or âI'm gonna buy thisâ.
Claire Torres: We did Financial Peace University, which was really helpful. Dave Ramsey's group has an app which I can highly recommend, Every Dollar app. So we can both see, we both jointly set the budget for the month, allocating it all out, and we can both see what's in there.
It helps us a lot. And so we have a certain amount of spending money that we allocate. So Joel knows what he can spend without having to ask me, right? He can just look on the app and go, âOkay, I have that amount of moneyâ. But then if there's anything over and above that, then we come together and we talk about it.
And that honestly has worked really well for us, it's just given us the tools to talk about it in a way that isn't inflammatory. We can just see the cold facts--this is how much income we're bringing in, so where are we together? Let's make the decisions about where we're gonna spend that and allocate that.
Robin Karkafi: This one does resonate with me a lot, because I have people in my life, couples that I'm really close with where I know the husband. Itâs usually is the husband who's really a spender. And the wife is more organized. And I do stack it up to financial literacy.
Some people just really don't take the time to learn the right good, healthy boundaries and structures. So all I hear in this section and the one before is Joel and Claire have just taken all the necessary steps, premarital counseling, a financial literacy, in this case from people like Dave Ramsey or that the University. I know it's not an actual University, but the course they took. It's fantastic that you're taking the time to invest in yourself and in your relationship academically, so that it's not a point of contention down the road. So they, they caught it, early on and sound by the sounds of it that it's working.
Me personally, I'm still trying to figure it out because I am a spender. I think this is one thing I love about my Lebanese heritage, is that in Lebanon we love to spend money on each other. We'd love to give gifts. That's how we show our love is to say, âHere, let me grab the bill. No worriesâ. And it's not a common thing around Canada. Sometimes I do it and I feel it's a bit more awkward than it is appreciated.
John Yoder: Another thing that Claire said that I think was really good, and they're an older couple. They were 36 and 46 when they married, so that's above the average, but they were mature. And they were more intentional, and they did pre-marriage counseling. And so I would just say to anybody out there, that you aren't even engaged yet but you're seriously dating and looking at each other. Going through marriage counseling is very helpful.
In fact, I wouldn't even propose to Sherry until we showed each other our budgets, our incomes, and we said, âOkay, if weâre together, here's what we would make, and here's what we would need to spend if we have a house togetherâ. Until I knew that, I wasn't ready to propose.
Now, many of our listeners didn't do that. And let's just say you're into a marriage, you're 3, 4, 5 years in, and nobody ever chatted with you about this. It's still helpful, even though you're on your fifth anniversary, to go through something on premarriage counseling because it takes everythingâmoney, and kids, and sex, and conflict, and communication, and walks you through all of that.
Robin Karkafi: This is awesome, John. It's honestly amazing to hear Joel and Claire work things together. And honestly, I can't wait to hear more about that.
What do we have next? What's going on?
John Yoder: Next week, we're gonna finish the interview with Joel and Claire. And specifically, we talked about church, and how they come from different languages, different cultures, and how could they find a shared worship that was really meaningful for both of them. A lot of mixed-race marriages really struggle with that, and we'll talk about that next week.
Robin Karkafi: Wow, that is big. Looking forward to it.
